Last week, new Michigan coach Dusty May spent a day with the Miami Heat staff and then flew to Pittsburgh to talk with Utah Jazz coach Will Hardy and Charlotte Hornets assistant coach Josh Longstaff. May will read any book or study any film of a basketball team if he thinks it might give him an idea, play or leadership tactic.
And part of his education is a podcast from two coaches most basketball fans have never heard of.
On his way to lunch last February, May listened to Olympia Milano coach Ettore Messina explain his offense’s spacing concepts. The week before, the voice of Tyler Gatlin, head coach of the Tokyo Hachioji Bee Trains, could be heard on May’s speakers. The next week, he heard former NBA head coach Stan Van Gundy.
The globe-trotting lessons come from the Slappin’ Glass podcast, which after four years and 201 episodes has become a word-of-mouth hit for coaches at all levels of the sport.
“I listen to every episode,” May said. “My staff listens to pretty much every episode. I think the majority of college coaches probably listen to it on a regular basis.”
Jeff Van Gundy stumbled upon one of the hosts’ video recaps – they also have a weekly newsletter and YouTube channel – and was so impressed that he called them to say how great it was. Since then, he’s encouraged some of his best friends in the industry to go on their show, and that’s how two unknown basketball coaches who played together at Division III Chapman University ended up on the phone with Hall of Fame football coach Bill Parcells.
“Everyone is cautious about going on a podcast where they’re going to bring up things they can’t talk about,” Van Gundy said. “They know it’s going to be pure basketball. There are no trick questions. It’s not overly dramatic clickbait like ‘Who’s the best player?’ … They’re really trying to help coaches coach better.”
The show’s guest list includes some of the most respected basketball coaches in the country – Brad Stevens, Geno Auriemma, Rick Pitino, Tom Thibodeau, Mike D’Antoni, the Van Gundy brothers, John Beilein, to name a few – and just as many big names from international basketball. What started as a self-improvement project for the hosts has become a shop-talking haven for coaches and diehard basketball fans at all levels.
“You can do something like that in an hour, and you’re generally a better coach afterward,” Saint Louis coach Josh Schertz said.
Carney and Krikorian in Berlin, the night the idea for the podcast was born. (Courtesy of Dan Krikorian)
Dan Krikorian’s original plan was to become a musician after graduating from Chapman University in 2007. Between tours, he earned extra money by teaching shooting lessons, coaching a youth team and eventually coaching his alma mater’s junior varsity team. “When I walked into the gym to practice, I thought, ‘OK, this is what I want to do,'” he said. In 2013, Krikorian returned to Chapman as an assistant coach. That summer, he was promoted to head coach.
Pat Carney played professionally for 12 seasons in some of Germany’s top basketball leagues. In 2018, he retired and stayed in Germany to pursue a coaching career. The two young coaches and former teammates stayed in touch by phone, watching other teams around the world and talking basketball. Over a beer in Berlin after Krikorian’s band played a show, Krikorian suggested turning these jam sessions into a podcast, interviewing the coaches whose systems had piqued their interest.
The idea was all but forgotten until a year later, when Krikorian and Carney were discussing Division III Yeshiva University’s Motion Offense, which had just gone 29-1 in Indiana with a modern replica of Bob Knight’s system. Krikorian and Carney wanted to grill coach Elliot Steinmetz, so they set up a Zoom meeting. Just before the meeting, Krikorian suggested recording it. He already had all the sound and editing equipment; if it went well, he could make the interview their first episode.
The pandemic had made it more common for coaches around the world to connect via video call. The first episode of the podcast, released on August 17, 2020, wasn’t as polished as what the guys at Slappin’ Glass produce today, but they liked it so much that they decided to make it a weekly routine.
The audience was small at first — “our moms,” Krikorian jokes — but they got a certain thrill when a famous guest came on the show, such as Jeff Van Gundy in February 2021. The hosts compiled a list of coaches they’d like to interview, took suggestions from fellow coaches, and then started trying their luck. To their surprise, they rarely heard no.
“They ask really good questions,” said Alabama assistant Ryan Pannone, the show’s third guest while coaching the G-League Erie Bayhawks. “And because their product is good and good coaches have talked about it, more coaches are willing to come because they’re listening.”
Their curiosity and research seem to loosen their lips. Beilein, who has always been cautious when speaking publicly about his two-guard offense, explained the doctrinal points to the Slappin’ Glass guys without hesitation and then praised the questions they asked him.
“I haven’t talked to anyone about basketball like that in a long time,” Belien said toward the end of the interview.
Most trainers approach podcast interviews expecting to be drawn into the story, but Slappin’ Glass guests quickly delve into the intricacies of their methods.
“That’s the ideal for us,” says Carney. “This isn’t an interview. Let’s talk about basketball.”
The ethos of the show: Everything a trainer does is interesting.
“The best thing about basketball, and what gives us new and fresh conversations every week, is that there are so many ways to win,” Carney said. “There are so many ways to teach something, so we never assume there’s only one right way. Otherwise, we probably would have had that conversation already and just stopped.”
Krikorian and Carney begin each interview with a few ideas, gleaned from reading and watching films, about what they want to talk about, but their ability to listen and ask intelligent questions carries the conversation and sometimes leads the interviewees to a dead end.
“That’s our favorite part of the podcast, when it goes in a direction we didn’t expect,” Krikorian said.
During their regular segment called “Start, Sub, Sit,” a basketball-centric twist on a common forced-choice game, they often let coaches explore new territory. When Stevens came on the show, they asked him which of three Ted Lasso quotes he would start, sub and sit. (Stevens’ start: “Do you know what the happiest animal in the world is? It’s a goldfish. Do you know why? It has a 10-second memory. Be a goldfish” — because you should never worry about what anyone is saying about you or worry about missing a shot. “I think that’s great,” Stevens said. “Let it be. Have shot amnesia.”)
It’s always about the game and you never deviate from anything that isn’t applicable to coaching.
“We know the trainer has 45 minutes to get on the treadmill or a 40-minute commute to work,” says Krikorian. “We don’t want to waste a second of their time on something that has no value.”
Kirkorian (left) was named head coach of his alma mater in August. (Alex Vazquez for Chapman University)
Thanks to their relationships with coaches like Van Gundy, Krikorian and Carney were able to bring in some of their most well-known guests. But what they’re most proud of is that the number of downloads and listeners to the show is no longer as dependent on name recognition. They’ve also been able to give some talented but lesser-known coaches a platform to share their knowledge and ideas.
“When you think about it, the best players progress the same way. They find a level. That’s not always true for coaches,” Van Gundy said. “Some do. And some don’t, either by choice or just for lack of opportunity. But I think too many fans think the best coaches rise the same way the players do. That’s not true.”
Krikorian and Carney have built up a nice side income. Their podcast has several sponsors and is downloaded an average of 30,000 to 40,000 times per month. Their newsletter has over 7,000 subscribers, of which almost 1,000 pay for their premium content.
While their content is consumable by anyone who loves the game – not just coaches – it’s a niche audience. But the goal was never to become famous; it was to become better coaches.
“In coaching, you have to be competent,” says Carney. “You have to know yourself. You have to work hard. But a lot of it is also relationships, and this has allowed us to build real relationships and continue conversations beyond the podcast that have directly influenced our careers.”
During the interview for this article, Carney was in Poland with the German U20 national team. That team’s head coach, Martin Schiller, was a guest in 2022 and stayed in touch with Carney, eventually asking him to join his team in the summer.
Krikorian says he’d be lying if he didn’t think about coaching at a level higher than D-III someday, but for now he’s living a pretty good life as the head coach of his alma mater, in his hometown’s backyard, and building a sustainable business born on a whim during the pandemic.
“The people I can now ask for advice,” says Krikorian. “It’s honestly a dream of ours.”
ESPN analyst Fran Fraschilla, a fan and two-time guest, says what the Slappin’ Glass guys have accomplished reminds him of an era long ago when coaches like Hubie Brown and Dean Smith went overseas to teach the game.
“What’s happened over two or three generations is that the world is now teaching us the game of basketball again,” Fraschilla says. “Slappin’ Glass has given us an incredible array of international basketball ideas. They are the conduit for great information on basketball training.”
(Photos of the above illustration courtesy of Alex Vasquez and @ralf.zimmermann.fotografie)
