Deirdre McCloskey – an 81-year-old economic historian – crosses herself every time she mentions Adam Smith. She is a diehard liberal (with a great sense of humor) from Ann Arbor, Michigan, once taught alongside Milton Friedman, and is the author of Why liberalism works (2019). Interestingly, McCloskey – who has been nominated several times for the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences – was a follower of Marx in her youth.
Her heart beats for radical opposites. At the age of 53 – married with two children – she decided to undergo sex reassignment surgery. And once an agnostic, she is now an ardent supporter of the Episcopal Church.
Her interview with EL PAÍS takes place at the Rafael del Pino Foundation in Madrid. Her voice – which she has had surgically altered several times to soften it – sounds metallic and scratchy. She stumbles over certain words (she stutters) and does not shy away from any subject. With pain in her voice, she tells us that her children have cut off all ties with her and that she does not know her grandchildren. Nevertheless, McCloskey is optimistic about the future of humanity. For her, the state is the great enemy.
This interview has been updated with two questions that McCloskey answered via email.
Ask. You cross yourself every time you mention Adam Smith. Why do you do that?
Answer. I respect him very much. He was something like the founder of economics. There were pioneers in France and Spain… but he gathered the information and wrote The Wealth of Nations in 1776. He was a convinced liberal: all his life he was against slavery. And what I also like about him is that he was funny. He made jokes. 18th century jokes.
Can I tell you something interesting? His father was a customs officer. And he was one for the last 10 years of his life!
In fact, Smith was appointed Customs Commissioner of Scotland in 1778.
Q A surprise from a tax abolition advocate.
A. But back then, governments were small and represented only 5% of total wealth. Today, in Spain, the United States, France… everywhere else in the world, they represent only 50% of total wealth.
Q Can you explain why you think a smaller state is better?
A. Big governments prevent people from developing. I use another word to define liberalism: adultism. I want us all to be mature adults…not children.
Q You represent humanitarian liberalism. What does that mean?
A. As a liberal, I love individuals. I love people. In other political movements there is a tendency to love certain populations. Whites but not blacks. Christians but not Jews. I am also a humanist in another sense of the word: academically. At 30, I studied literature and taught some courses. I am convinced, as Keynes said, that someone who is only an economist cannot get very far.
Q You don’t like the word capitalism. Can you explain why?
A. It seems that everyone gets rich by accumulating wealth. At least that’s what Marx and Adam Smith believed. But I don’t think that’s a valid idea anymore, and I’m in favor of changing the name. Pure capital accumulation doesn’t make us rich. Would owning six cars help you? In 1800, people in Spain lived on (the equivalent of) two euros a day. Today, it’s about 100 euros a day. This complete change is thanks to innovation. Essayist Virginia Postrel calls it dynamism. I call it innovism. The word “capitalism” simply misleads us.
Q You think liberalism has to reach the heart to convince us. With what arguments?
A. I was a folk singer in the 1960s. I know all the social songs from that time. I used to sing them… but unfortunately I can’t anymore. It’s crucial to speak to the heart – like the songs do. If you’re a socialist, you have to have a connection to socialism. If you’re a fascist, you have to love the leader. But liberalism is too reasonable. It’s not passionate. We have to stop saying that the free market is good just because you earn 10% more. That’s true, but it doesn’t move anyone.
Q Who do you want to vote for in the presidential election?
A. For Kamala Harris. Trump is running to stay out of jail; he has no real political convictions. His advisers do, however. And their convictions – expressed through Trump’s cavalier rhetoric – are fascist. Promoting violence as a political tool? Done! Corrupting the legal system to crush the opposition? Done! Proposing to put 11 million people in concentration camps? Done! Undermining legitimate elections, Venezuelan style? Done!
Q You liked Biden. What do you think of Kamala Harris?
A. Personality is important. We need virtuous leaders, at least a modicum of virtue. Even his supporters admit that Trump is a very, very bad person: a liar, a cheat, an adulterer, cruel, irresponsible and dishonest in every way. His evangelical supporters defend him as an “imperfect instrument of God,” in the style of King David. Biden and Harris are at least a modicum of ethics.
Q In countries where liberalism comes to power, politicians often implement very strict social policies, as well as economic decisions that go in the direction you support, such as Javier Milei, who wants to ban abortion in Argentina. What do you think about that?
A. I think he is wrong. I believe in a woman’s right to decide for herself.
Q What is the liberal attitude towards gender reassignment?
A. Liberalism defends individual rights over collective or state rights…(the idea that) every person can do what they want. If someone wants to have a gun to shoot people, you have to stop them. But if someone wants to wear a skirt, let them be. That’s my experience in the liberal movement. They have no problem with what I’ve done (in my personal life).
By the way, many (neoliberals) are gay. I was a heterosexual man, I was with the woman of my life… when I had my sex change, my mother said to my sister: “I can understand that she changed her sex, but what I don’t understand is that she decided to become a Christian.” She was an atheist. And very funny.
Q Many of the voices defending transgender people come from so-called “woke” culture. What do you think of this movement?
A. It is desirable to stay woke. “Woke” reminds us that the United States has a race problem. Sometimes (the ones associated with this idea) can be irritating… but the thing is, we really do have a serious race problem. There are other “woke” offshoots that I don’t like, like trans-exclusionary feminists. What is important to a trans person’s life is that people – as individuals – accept them.
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